POTUS Trump Thread

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Postby coop » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:51 am

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Postby important dentist » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:52 am

the scofflaw wrote:mcentee is the trick shot qb dude :lol:


this is like when david lynch hired the guy from that accent video on youtube to be in twin peaks
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Postby KALM » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:55 am

light rail coyote wrote:
KALM wrote:the argument that obama should have invoked historical precedents from "chile, brazil, or a lot of other countries with pacted transitions from military rule to democracy in the late 80s" and expanded or built upon that framework may have merit, but it's kind of a far cry from "obama didn't prosecute anyone because he's a proud part of that establishment not because he's pragmatic, dude"


how so? the first post was about Obama's political motivations, the second part was pointing out that there is some precedent even if it's not an exact 1-1 parallel.

the lack of historical precedent, which suggested that "truth and reconciliation commissions" let alone prosecutions are rare in comparable cirucmstances, lends support to a competing interpretation of obama's motivations. that a "pragmatist" looking at the lack of domestic and international precedent for this sort of thing might have come to the conclusion that this process -- either of the initial two processes suggested -- would end up as a clusterfuck and derail his agenda.

(as for the not 1-1 parallel, i am pretty ignorant about all of this stuff, so i apologize if i'm mistaken, but from what i can tell, just through a quick google search, i believe your first example was the rettig report, issued after chile's transition from military rule and concluding, detailing nearly 20 years of war crimes/human rights abuses, wherein 27,255 people were tortured, 2,279 executed, and "some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention," and not a 1-1 parallel seems like that might be a bit of an understatement)
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Postby tex porneau » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:58 am

mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:If Obama failed to live up to his promises in curbing war crimes & torture, it is his administration's job to convince dissenters why they were right to choose not to. It isn't the dissenter's job to assume the failure was in good faith.

this is literally not his 'job'

y'all are some bully pulpit doofuses


Who better to explain the administration's decision making than...the administration.
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Postby light rail coyote » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:01 pm

mites wrote:
light rail coyote wrote:
mites wrote:saying it's not exact 1-1 parallel is a massive understatement

sorry you bought into messiah obama shoulda watched more fox news, lrc


I definitely did not buy into messiah Obama. I wanted the bare minimum and didn't even get that. I wasn't expecting full indictments or prosecutions, just something more than wishy washy garbage about how we need to move forward and not backward. Even just using his campaign rhetoric while in office would've been something.


I believe obama made a choice about using the institutional power he'd just been elected to over undermining his ability to use it by dropping that line to attack. it's fine if you wanted no achievement on that front and just for him to say mean things about people who did evil shit, but I don't think it's his fault he couldn't and therefore decided he wouldn't do anything about it.

it's not just the politicians that were complicit it was our entire country.


That last part is entirely accurate but I guess I'm just of the mind that the point of a popular, charismatic politician is to try to forge new consensus on issues they care about, even if it's just in incremental rhetorical steps.

I'm a Marxist and not an incrementalist but isn't that generally supposed to be the strategy that incrementalist liberals are advocating? (this isn't snark or rhetorical, it's always been my assumption but I've seen lots of people arguing against it so now I'm less sure)
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:08 pm

I think american foreign policy has a lot more to do with the dynamics of imperialism and that is reinforced by too many veto points within our institutional structures which obfuscates who is even at fault for decision making for the electorate.

also our populace loves the military and the office of the presidency and we focus far too much on the president as the solver of problems
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Postby Franco » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:10 pm

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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:11 pm

mites wrote:I think american foreign policy has a lot more to do with the dynamics of imperialism and that is reinforced by too many veto points within our institutional structures which obfuscates who is even at fault for decision making for the electorate.

also our populace loves the military and the office of the presidency and we focus far too much on the president as the solver of problems


agreed. this is why its also bad to blame trump for most things. dude can't solve any problems as hard as he might try. 8-)
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Postby easy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:11 pm

clownshoes
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:12 pm

tex porneau wrote:
mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:If Obama failed to live up to his promises in curbing war crimes & torture, it is his administration's job to convince dissenters why they were right to choose not to. It isn't the dissenter's job to assume the failure was in good faith.

this is literally not his 'job'

y'all are some bully pulpit doofuses


Who better to explain the administration's decision making than...the administration.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statemen ... -detainees
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Postby delgriffith » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:13 pm

easy wrote:clownshoes

You called?
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Postby light rail coyote » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:16 pm

KALM wrote:
light rail coyote wrote:
KALM wrote:the argument that obama should have invoked historical precedents from "chile, brazil, or a lot of other countries with pacted transitions from military rule to democracy in the late 80s" and expanded or built upon that framework may have merit, but it's kind of a far cry from "obama didn't prosecute anyone because he's a proud part of that establishment not because he's pragmatic, dude"


how so? the first post was about Obama's political motivations, the second part was pointing out that there is some precedent even if it's not an exact 1-1 parallel.

the lack of historical precedent, which suggested that "truth and reconciliation commissions" let alone prosecutions are rare in comparable cirucmstances, lends support to a competing interpretation of obama's motivations. that a "pragmatist" looking at the lack of domestic and international precedent for this sort of thing might have come to the conclusion that this process -- either of the initial two processes suggested -- would end up as a clusterfuck and derail his agenda.

(as for the not 1-1 parallel, i am pretty ignorant about all of this stuff, so i apologize if i'm mistaken, but from what i can tell, just through a quick google search, i believe your first example was the rettig report, issued after chile's transition from military rule and concluding, detailing nearly 20 years of war crimes/human rights abuses, wherein 27,255 people were tortured, 2,279 executed, and "some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention," and not a 1-1 parallel seems like that might be a bit of an understatement)


I think the issue is that we're all, myself included, getting lost in the weeds here. I was responding to notes saying there was no precedent anywhere by pointing out that it's not entirely true, and it seemed like his argument was based exclusively on the idea that there was none. his last post cleared a lot of that up for me.

I guess I just fundamentally disagree that Obama was being pragmatic because, as I've said, I wasn't actually expecting a full on commission but just the absolute bare minimum- maybe some rhetoric that indicated it's not cool, maybe even some of those involuntary voluntary resignations that the establishment loves so much when they're caught red handed. But I don't think that Obama really cared all that much outside of using it electorally and that's why it was dropped immediately upon being elected, even in the most minimalistic sense possible.
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Postby delgriffith » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Don't worry though, not everybody at the CIA got away without punishment: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/us/former-cia-officer-pleads-guilty-in-leak-case.html
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Postby tex porneau » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:22 pm

I'm not sure how a statement from Eric Holder that is basically the equivalent of "Don't worry guys. I checked it out and things are chill. In-fact, better than chill, the CIA kicks ass!" is supposed to make me feel more sympathetic.
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Postby easy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:22 pm

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Postby Barthes Starr » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:25 pm



pretty standard anti-globalist HR protocol
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Postby Hoxha » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:25 pm

mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:If Obama failed to live up to his promises in curbing war crimes & torture, it is his administration's job to convince dissenters why they were right to choose not to. It isn't the dissenter's job to assume the failure was in good faith.

this is literally not his 'job'


Is it your job to be lodged inside his asshole?

He's a politician, of course he has to convince people for fuck's sake.
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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:25 pm

mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:
mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:If Obama failed to live up to his promises in curbing war crimes & torture, it is his administration's job to convince dissenters why they were right to choose not to. It isn't the dissenter's job to assume the failure was in good faith.

this is literally not his 'job'

y'all are some bully pulpit doofuses


Who better to explain the administration's decision making than...the administration.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/statemen ... -detainees


im glad eric holder appreciates and respects torturers lol. this has put me, and i hope all of amerikkka, at ease
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:26 pm

tex porneau wrote:I'm not sure how a statement from Eric Holder that is basically the equivalent of "Don't worry guys. I checked it out and things are chill. In-fact, better than chill, the CIA kicks ass!" is supposed to make me feel more sympathetic.

that's their explanation

I also do not think the CIA kicks ass but the statement makes it p clear what they're considering when they make the decision

1) can we succeed in the prosecution (no we can't)
2) will it undermine our ability to run the government (they believe yes to the point that they kiss the cia's ass after considering bringing charges or alternatively they definitely love the CIA's war crimes and they just pulled a fast one on us all!! lol slick move barry, bringing up something you can get hit on later that no one ever wanted you to do in the first place! huge win!!!)
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:27 pm

Hoxha wrote:
mites wrote:
tex porneau wrote:If Obama failed to live up to his promises in curbing war crimes & torture, it is his administration's job to convince dissenters why they were right to choose not to. It isn't the dissenter's job to assume the failure was in good faith.

this is literally not his 'job'


Is your job to be lodged inside his asshole?

He's a politician, of course he has to convince people for fuck's sake.

my favorite Real radical is here again
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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:27 pm

is there any doubt out there that democrats love war crimes?
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Postby delgriffith » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:30 pm


McCain's gonna live long enough to bravely confirm her.
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:30 pm

hot take: every state power structure that commits war crimes loves them until they're forced not to either by their own destruction, or outside pressures that's why the institutions did the war crimes in the first place
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Postby delgriffith » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:31 pm

delgriffith wrote:
WAC wrote:lol



Oh dear.

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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:34 pm

mites wrote:hot take: every state power structure that commits war crimes loves them until they're forced not to either by their own destruction, or outside pressures that's why the institutions did the war crimes in the first place


yea, well it's kinda weird that you're defending them as these good principled liberals who, gosh darn it, just decided it was too hard to prosecute torture.
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:36 pm

honestly does anyone have a good working theory about what is wrong with eric garland
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Postby mites » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:36 pm

freezinseason wrote:
mites wrote:hot take: every state power structure that commits war crimes loves them until they're forced not to either by their own destruction, or outside pressures that's why the institutions did the war crimes in the first place


yea, well it's kinda weird that you're defending them as these good principled liberals who, gosh darn it, just decided it was too hard to prosecute torture.

you have reading comprehension issues
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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:37 pm

mites wrote:
freezinseason wrote:
mites wrote:hot take: every state power structure that commits war crimes loves them until they're forced not to either by their own destruction, or outside pressures that's why the institutions did the war crimes in the first place


yea, well it's kinda weird that you're defending them as these good principled liberals who, gosh darn it, just decided it was too hard to prosecute torture.

you have reading comprehension issues


no i dont
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Postby came to wreck » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:38 pm

freezinseason wrote:
mites wrote:I think american foreign policy has a lot more to do with the dynamics of imperialism and that is reinforced by too many veto points within our institutional structures which obfuscates who is even at fault for decision making for the electorate.

also our populace loves the military and the office of the presidency and we focus far too much on the president as the solver of problems


agreed. this is why its also bad to blame trump for most things. dude can't solve any problems as hard as he might try. 8-)


lol
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Postby freezinseason » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:40 pm

in 8 years trump supporters will be like "he tried his best to jail hillary but the institutional will just wasnt there. we're all complicit in benghazi. i don't think we should focus so much on the president as the solver of problems"
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